Pat Obuchowski: Finding Yourself in Life

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Joining us from San Francisco. Pat Obuchowski is the founder of envision Aria and executive leadership and team coaching company. She is also the creator of gutsy womenwind.com, which is dedicated to supporting and encouraging women leaders around the world. She is also an author of the bestselling books, gutsy women, when how to get gutsy and get going as well as gutsy leaders, 140 bits of wisdom to build great teams with vision and compassion and success starts today featuring herself and Jack Canfield.  

Pat, thanks for jumping on today. You’re quite welcome. Happy to be here at Damon. So you have a, a lengthy bio there with some great accomplishments. Um, you know, where does this all start? How did you get into such this wide array of skills? Well, here’s the deal. I took this assessment, uh, quite a while ago, quite a while ago, maybe about 10 years ago and found out that one of my greatest strengths happens to be learner.  

And that has answered the question I’ve had through my career as to why it was, I would stay in a certain place or stay in a certain venue for about a year and a half, and then I’d have to go. Um, cause I’m always constantly looking, learning. And I come from a corporate background, a corporate business background.  

And when I left. Corporate America, as a lot of people seem to be doing. I just took a look at what it was that I love to do, and it was to build my team. And so I decided to go into the field of coaching and that’s how I landed here and having my own business. Of course I can create whatever I want to create.  

You know, I am what I make up, so I’m making it up to be really, really good. Good. So you talked about, you know, usually you come in and when you work with people, you help them with tips and processes that they can use in their daily routine, kind of to determine, you know, where they are currently and where they need to go from here.  

So how does that process and journey begin with you? Walk us through, what did it like, how you do what you do. Yeah, well, coaching is really all about taking a person from where they are and taking a look at where they are. I want to go and then help them through that process of getting where it is that they want to go to.  

And so it’s a lot about helping people become aware, helping them through the day, the exploration process of what is really new next for them. So we take people through different types of assessments. And also have them, as I did look back in order to look forward, I also utilize one of the models called the bigger game, which is a nine element model, very similar to a tic TAC toe board.  

Right. That helps people really get in contact. Well, what is it that I’m really hungry to create in the world? What is the legacy I want to leave? Or what is my purpose? However you want to term it, help them find that and then help them leave comfort zones that aren’t serving their bigger game have having to take a look at what are the things that you need to improve fast and finding allies things along those lines.  

So you help people on both the professional and the personal side, and obviously everybody’s different, but is there kind of a common trend that you usually see most people trip over themselves that’s affecting their success issues. And if there is, she’s a more dominant professional, it also affects personal life and vice versa.  

Yeah. Yeah. You know, I know I get hired on a professional basis because somebody wants to become a better leader or somebody needs some help in a certain skillset, according to that company’s culture. And here’s what happens. I have found. And I’ve been in my business for 17 years. Damon, I have definitely found you cannot separate the professional from the personal you get hired for, for the professional.  

And it. Always turns into the personal, without a doubt. And I think that that is the most healthy thing in the world to have happened because we want to be integrated in our lives. We want to be doing the things and bringing and the money that we want that joy. And we want to take that joy and bring it to our families, our neighborhoods, our, our communities, the one thing that I, that I find consistently over and over again, regardless of what I get hired for that, it really is all about. 

 People just don’t know how to talk to each other communication. You know, they don’t know how to ask for what it is that they want. They don’t know really how to just be in communication with people. That’s a real struggle for a lot of people how to talk to each other. Do you think that, um, is there a difference in that communication issue across generations? 

 Do you see it better or worse between the different generations? That’s a really interesting question. I think my experience leads me to the concept. Total concept that the older generation, they, 50 years older are pretty much at a time where, you know, they are taking a look at what’s next for them. And it is really kind of getting more in touch with them.  

What do they want to create as a legacy in the world? And the communication is kind of settled in there. They’re kind of more accepting to what is going on around while the younger generation really does have a, have a better part and really asks for what it is that they want, what it is that they need and making that become real.  

I do though. See a definite difference in the genders. Hmm. Interesting. All right. Well, let’s, let’s talk about that envision Aria. So it’s an executive leadership and team coaching company, and I assume that ties in pretty much directly to what we were just talking about. Why don’t you tell us more specifically about your company?  

Yeah, the company is built on the concept to that spilled in the name in vision Aria, that we all need a vision in order to move forward in our lives in order to move forward in our, in our work. So I help people really. Find what that mission is and make it a real vision for themselves. So I think that we always need to have that vision, but the vision always seems to be out there.  

It’s like, well, you know, I’ll do this after X happens, you know, I’ll do this after I have 10 years under my belt, I’ll do this. When the kids are teenagers, I will do this when I retire. There’s always this future thing in it. So. I call it the, in your vision. In other words, do something every single day that moves your vision forward, regardless of how little it is, but always stay in contact with that vision, with that passion, with it.  

Yeah. One thing that you want to do more than anything else in the world, and then Aria, Aria is. Music created for a single voice with a company mint. So I, as a coach, a company, people on creating that vision and having them take action on it tends to envision Aria. That’s really what the company is all about.  

I like how you talked about basically taking baby steps. And it reminds me of a conversation I had with a gentleman last week. He owns a farm and I donated some, some equipment to them. And, um, that really kind of opened them up. And, and I got talking to him about how he got into, you know, where he’s at.  

And he shared a story. He had one of those moments in life that changed it trajectory. And he gave the, the babies step story two, and he says, well, I’m down, you know, 80 pounds or however much it was. And he says, you know how I did it is I set goals to lose two pounds. Yeah. And then I, and then I do an, and then when I lose those two pounds, I got to lose another two pounds.  

Cause if you say you got to lose 80 pounds, it’s overwhelming, but it’d be sad to lose two pounds and he’s just cranking it out. Yeah, exactly. And I did that with my business, you know, leaving corporate America, uh, you know, a study job someplace where I was recognized as a, as a really great employee. I was given accolades. 

 I was, you know, money was thrown and to leave that type of security and comfort is a, was a really hard thing. Thing to do. And so if I thought, Oh my God, you know, if I, if I looked at this and thought about the whole future and the rest of my life, it was overwhelming. I had to chunk it down and say, okay, I’m going to do this.  

This is what I need to do. And I’m going to do it for two years. Right. I’m going to do it for two years. And so I did chunk it down, but I I’m in total agreement because that big vision, because it comes really overwhelming. It’s not times it’s so overwhelming. It makes us stop ourselves in our track. So it never becomes a reality for us, which is a really sad thing to have happened in our lives.  

Yeah. What? So even though you kind of broke it down, uh, was there a point that shifted your momentum or you where you said, I, I need to look into this different path. Wow. I, you know what? I stuck with it for those two years, uh, being, you know, creating my own business and I really stuck with it for those two years.  

And the one thing that I recommend to people should they decide to leave the, should leave a full time job is really to be sure that you have the finances to carry you through for. X amount of time, whatever that ax means to you, it is really, really important when you’re creating a business that you not have to worry about the financials, right.  

Cause that can become so overwhelming. So for me, I just. You know, two years and again, being a learner, as I said, at the beginning of our conversation, Damon, is that I was able to create many different areas where I could bring income in. So I wasn’t just really focused on this is the only thing I’m going to do.  

So I do many other, you know, things and I keep my, my life and my business for me, really fascinating and changing. Got it. Yeah. Now you had said that. Uh, you do notice a difference between genders. What about, what about Zodiac signs? Does Zodiac science? Uh, I don’t know if you ever pay attention to that or what people’s signs are, but got any insights.  

I do that familiar, although that really does make me very curious. I just started doing a little bit of research, um, on that. No, I can’t answer that question. I’m not that familiar with the Zodiac side, except for my own, which is an Aries and a triple dragon in the Chinese. Here’s really powerful. Yeah.  

It’s funny. You know, I don’t get too caught up into, you know, beliefs one way or another of just any type, but it’s really interesting when, um, When you look at the high level, stuff like that, and somebody says , it does seem interesting that you see common denominators across certain Zodiac signs. So I figured you take a shot in the dark.  

Well, I’m still dark. I’m sorry. What? So what’s also talking about, about gutsy women, win.com. Yeah. So gutsy women when win came out of my, in my lifetime of being an activist and a supporter for women in many, many different areas. But in two particular areas, I have been a huge supporter for women in business because we need to be making more money.  

You know, we’re still on the average makings. 70, I think it’s up to 76 cents, right? Um, to, uh, to anyone dollar than it that a male makes. So we need to make money because let’s face it. Money is power. And in the second area, it’s in the area of politics because we need more women in. To be able to change laws that impact women in and of itself.  

So about six years ago, I decided that I wanted to really focus my work more on women and it’s helping them step into those leadership roles. And that started the creation of. You know, writing my book, which is one of the things I’ve wanted to do since I was as a child and creating what I term as my sister brand, which is gutsy women win.  

It’s really interesting. That just what you talked about, how the 76 cents on the dollar and women’s success. There’s another woman that I follow. Who’s a big podcaster and she made a post recently and she said that her company is, you know, a year or two old and they already hit six figures per month.  

Which is amazing for any business, but she went on to elaborate. I don’t remember the exact statistics, but she was talking about how less than a certain percent of, of women on business survive, you know, even the first year or two, let her alone six, six figures. And so that was a really interesting statistic to read, but it makes a lot of sense, you know, money being power and, and, and getting that extra voice in these areas of influence.  

Yeah. And it has actually been shown through research that when women serve in higher levels inside of organizations and when women serve on board of directors, that revenue increases employee engagement increases in productivity increases also. I don’t know if you’re aware of it in the state of California, which is my home state. 

 We have just made it law this year, that if you are a publicly held company and your primary offices are in the state of California, by the end of this year, you need to have at least one woman on your board of directors. Interesting. What, what to companies do if, uh, they, they don’t find that talent. Well, there are lots of resources, uh, that are working on providing women, the training for them to step into those types of positions.  

And I know one when one organization is how women lead here in the San Francisco Bay area that helps women go through that type of training. So there was a lot of resources. I don’t know what would happen if an organization cannot find a woman, but I also. I think it’s not even conceivable that they could.  

And that’s my input. If they, if they do the due diligence, you’re saying they have no, no reason. Yeah. No reason at all. Why could they couldn’t find a woman? So you got into this profession, you had mentioned through a mix of intention and stumbling into it. Why don’t you walk us through that? Oh my gosh  

That was a wonderful adventure. Um, when I left my last full time position, I was actually running a couple, um, it departments. And what happened is that I just didn’t cited at that point in my life that I just didn’t want to do that any longer. You know, technology was moving at the speed of light. I was making high dollar decisions inside of companies.  

And quite honestly, I just, I didn’t want to keep up with it. Just didn’t want to keep up with it. So when I left, I worked with a career coach, um, in a career coaching organization. And one of the things that he told me, he said, you know, Pat, don’t look for it, the exact type of work merely because you’re good at it.  

And you get recognition for it, but take a little, you know, maybe some things that didn’t even exist 10 years ago. Right. So, It was like someone had given me the permission to venture out of my little myopic box of this is who I am. This is what I do. So when he said that I started to really pay attention to the things I was hearing.  

And what I was seeing is I was doing the research for. Looking for more work, looking for a job. And I kept hearing about this field of coaching. The other thing I really believe in now, because synchronicity, how, if you really start focusing on what it is that you want, you start paying attention and you start hearing things.  

And what happened is I had a really bad, bad interview. I mean, I fail fabulously and I went in to talk to a different career coach about my failure and. What could I have done differently? And I said, just before I left, Hey, you know, I keep hearing about this field called coaching. Yeah. This was seven years ago.  

So it wasn’t a familiar term except in sports. I told her, do you know anything about it? And she said, you won’t believe this, but I have just been researching for the past six months. See if I need to go get some skill training in this particular field to enhance what I do. And tomorrow night, Uh, just a couple miles away.  

There was a demonstration. Yeah. I went to the demonstration and Damon, uh, gentleman was in front of the room and he took two people at random out of the office and he was able to. Have them take a look at a different perspective in their lives that they just couldn’t see. They could only see this one way of going and he helped them look at a different perspective and then got them into some action to move towards something that they wanted more than they wanted to stay there.  

And so I just looked at him in front of the room and said, I want to know how to do that. Yeah. And in three weeks I was sitting in a, in a coach training class and the rest is history. Here. I am. You said that you kind of were given permission, you said, and it’s. Amazing at how much that little subconscious nudge can make a difference.  

And, you know, it reminds me of one story when, uh, it was like Tony Hawk and skateboarding, and he was one of the first to do like a seven 20 or a 10 acres. Some skater did something and it had never been done before. And then the day after he did it, Then like two or three more people did it just because they were given that acknowledgement that it’s possible. 

Yeah. I always, you know, regardless of who I’m working with, you know, some people are kind of afraid because, because nobody else, you know, nobody else has done this, or nobody else will say this, or they’ll look this way. They’ll look that way. But so very true. Like you said, once one person. Does something or speaks up or models a certain behavior.  

It gives people the permission and to do the same. That’s why authenticity is really, really important inside of company, inside of organizations, whether it’s. Profit nonprofit NGOs, because once one person will start to open up about some of their fears or apprehensions or things that they might be afraid of.  

Um, it does, it gives that permission to other people to open up to and, and it creates magic. Yeah, it does. It just really creates magic to do that. I had the privilege of meeting Seth goat. And this week you familiar with who Seth Godin is? Yes, I am very much. He had a, so he did this little private event for about a hundred marketers and he was sharing this story and it was about, um, he was giving a metaphor and it was about yo-yos.  

So like Jojo was in elementary and they talk about how there’s like a cycle. And yo-yo is B because you have the fifth graders or whatever elementary aged kids. If, if the right kid. Brings a Jojo. Then he, you know, the popular kid, then it gets the early adopters. And so it brings in all these things. So you just need that one person, the right person that touched the right to hit the right ears to be that early adopter.  

And then he had this graph and talked about how there’s this chasm between early adopters and mass adoption. And so anyways, I think it kind of ties into what you’re talking about. If you just get the right person to give you that, that metaphorical permission, it can make a huge, huge impact. Yeah, exactly.  

So I want to go back just a little bit. Um, you had talked about, you know, statistics say that when women are brought into higher roles, organizations, increased productivity, what is it that you think that’s specific about women that brings that direct, positive impact? Yeah, I think that there are some elements that, that brings up in.  

And I told me again, my experience that women leaders bring all of them, a lot of humanity to our work environment, that there is more passion. There is more empathy. There is more understanding of us on a human level. You know, I hear a lot about the whole concept of work life balance. I don’t believe that that is a concept.  

I don’t believe that you’re ever going to reach perfect balance between your work and your life, because we’re always choosing absolutely juicing. And I think that women bring into organizations as leaders and understanding. Of what it is like to have so many different things you are juggling in the air.  

Uh, let’s face it. You know, women are still. Handling the majority of household works, the majority of taking care of kids, the majority of scheduling things, whether you know, their doctor’s appointments or PTA meetings, or, you know, Steven social life for, you know, for the family unit, you’re keeping track of that.  

So there’s so many things that, that women bring into it that I, that I think men don’t see that. Aside because women are still the primary supporters for, you know, the personal life, you know, and I think women are also, again, this is my experience. I don’t have any data, no stats. Do you know the purpose, but it seems as if they are much better at team building because they do.  

The skills of active listening and do the skills of really coaching. I mean, that’s the way leadership is heading into, it’s not hierarchical leadership any longer. I have. Thank God, but it is really more participatory and. Collaborative thinking and building your teams in that manner. And I just, you know, women have had that skill set to be able to do that.  

And it feels more natural for them, I believe. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Now where you’ve been at this for 17 years, you had mentioned the length of your career is, is. One of your greatest accomplishments now within that 17 year, is there any, anything from the highlight reel that really stands out of, you know, Improvements that you’ve helped people or businesses, you know, case study kind of stuff that really always sticks out in your mind.  

Yeah. What, what really? I think the things for me, of course, because you know, my sister grand has got two women win and I support women. I think for me, what really sticks out are the women that I have coached in particular areas. That they are taking a look at really making a hard decision for them and that hard decision.  

And I don’t think it’s, it’s really gender related. I think both men and women have that decision in, in stepping into, you know, do I, as an individual that is in a technical arena, do I step into leadership and let go of all that I’ve grown in the technical, you know, and this is, this is a challenging decision for people, especially in engineering and it, and that whole technical arena.  

Because once you decide to step into leading people, you start to lose your technical ability. You know, which now you’re Mark your, your next step is going to be leadership of people versus technology. It’s hard to get back. And I know that through personal experience. And I think that the things that I am proudest of is that right. 

 The women make that decision. They. They make a good decision for them as opposed to being pushed by an organization or a push by the outside. And that they do find how to be able to sit at the table and talk at the proverbial table and to use their voice and to say, Hey see me. I’m here. I’m on value.  

You have great ideas. Pay attention to me, that to me is really the proudest memory. When they come out and say, you should have seen me at that meeting, Pat, I spoke up and this other person stole my idea. And I said, thank you very much for that. And you can be on my team if this idea should get accepted. 

 So it is, that is also the whole concept of more and more women who want. She’d be promoted into those types of positions and to bring themselves again, authentically, as opposed to having to act like what they see. Right. Which happens to be let’s admit it predominantly male still. Yeah. And so it is having them, this is it, Damon. 

 This is it. This is having these women. Through what they are doing, what they are saying, how they are modeling, giving permission to others to do something and modeled the same thing. Yeah. That’s how we raise each other up. Yeah, that’s got to feel really rewarding to have those stories when they come back offline and say, you know, this is what happened.  

Um, you know, I’d be interested in it if you want to touch this topic, if you don’t understand. Um, but uh, I want to say it was two years ago that Google had an employee. Who had said something about, uh, I’m gonna, I’m going to slaughter this, but he had said something about the role of women in his specific goal, specific technical field.  

And it was something like coding. And so he was saying, you know, I, there there’s nothing, he was totally neutral about it from at least from what I read, but he was just saying. In his opinion from a literal position that we have a hard time filling these positions because, um, based on gender men prefer to do these types of, uh, they have the interest in these types of careers and women have an interest in these types of careers.  

Do you agree that not necessarily in this specific example, but gender does play a role on the, the interest in careers that certain genders can pursue. I think that that is true. And I think it’s not true. How’s that for an answer, there was like, I saw a little bit earlier and I love this statement. You cannot be what you cannot see.  

And I think that girls have less of an opportunity to be exposed to the types of jobs that young boys are. And it starts then. Right. Cause I don’t know if you have seen. Seen it, but there are so many organizations now that are coming out to help support and build and train and give them the confidence of young girls in STEM careers.  

Right. Because we. Don’t have that opportunity. Uh, they don’t have being able to take a look at, at any models that model that, and yes, it is primarily males. I live in the middle of Silicon Valley and I see it around me all the time. The majority of individuals that work in high-tech organizations, startups, entrepreneurs are male here.  

And it’s tough for a woman to get in there. And because of that, um, male dominated essence, not only in the hierarchy, but also in teams, when you start an organization, women just are a little bit pushed out of that. So I think, yes, yes, it is a challenge because women are not exposed to that any young age and no, it’s not a challenge because more and more there are.  

Organizations that help girls get it into STEM careers. It’s a really complex issue, Damon, and I certainly don’t have the answer to it, but I do see progress not as much as I think that we will need for true equality and these types of in this type of work. But I still do see progress. That makes a lot of sense.  

So yes, it’s the circumstance now, but it’s because there hasn’t been equal exposure. How, how long do you think, how far out do you think we are until, you know, do you think we’re a generation two generations out until we get kind of, this is level playing field? I kind of want, I don’t want to, I don’t know.  

And I don’t want to know. I don’t know. Like I said, I’m seeing progress and it is very, very, very slow. Yeah, both in, you know, like I said, the two areas that I’m primarily interested in supporting and advancing is business. Yeah. This this past year was, uh, you know, really excuse my term, but it was pretty kick ass for women in politics, considering all the women that are now in Congress, the women that are have gubernatorial positions and even just women running and women interested in running.  

But I think I don’t want to predict it, but I know I won’t see it in my lifetime. Yeah. So for the listeners on video, she was ducking her head. Like, I don’t know. I don’t want to answer this. No, I don’t want to wait that long so, well, uh, let me ask you another thing that our listeners can’t see. You got, you got a whole bunch of pictures on the back of your door there.  

What do we got going on over there? Nice noticing. I T did you see earlier on, I tried to change my video, so you. That’s actually a little bit along the year. It’s a little bit of, you know, I guess what is the vision board? And it just really stands as a reminder of me, of my vision and who it is that I want to be in, what my legacy, you know, is that I want to have in the world.  

And I used to work a couple years ago, I was developing a company called the rocket ship and we were helping people we’ll put together movies of their own vision statements. And there was a principle that a couple of principles and one of them, it happened to be that you integrate everything in our lives.  

I think that’s really an important principle that we have and that we hold a positive vision. And then the third one is that there’s a non expression of negativity. I think, you know, I’m a pretty positive person. And I really like to help people see positivity in all situations, not like a Pollyanna, but. 

You know too well, I call myself a rational optimist is what I call myself, but I think it’s really important that we bring positivity into the world so that we can move forward in a way that will open up space for other people, to be able to bring their ideas to the table, to bring their voices to the table so that they know they make a difference.  

I really like the term rational optimist, because I prefer to be an optimist as well, but sometimes there’s reality and, and, and, you know, sometimes I talk to these, these self help people. Well, which I really admire that they can be so optimistic, but sometimes I’m like, come on now. Let’s be realistic. 

 Exactly. Yeah. I roam around that world every now and then I touch a few of them and I totally agree with you, you know, there’s only so much optimism that, that you can have. And you know, for me, it’s really great to be optimistic about things, but, you know, help me get into action around. It helped me make it real as opposed to. 

 Keep dreaming about it and remain optimistic about it. And I agree, yes. Reality steps in on a daily basis, if not hourly basis, you know, sometimes, um, yeah, well, I’m going to steal your term there. So just so I stole it from somewhere. Um, so you contribute flexibility and consistently evaluating. What is the best use of yourself as you know, one of the characteristics that’s contributed to your success.  

Uh, give us an example of that, what you mean by the flexibility and what type of continual self-evaluation, you know, what are you talking about? Give us an example a little bit. Yeah. Well, I think that flexibility is a must have for anyone living in today’s world. Um, you know, we may have one idea, one direction that we want to head into, and we’re really clear on that direction.  

Well, guess what? Yeah, it’s going to change. It’s just going to change because of all of the outside influences all of the outside, you know, um, outside input that we get on a, on a daily, daily basis and let’s face it. You, you, uh, We no longer stay in job. And one job for a lifetime every two years, every three years, people are leaving, looking for different jobs.  

And so there’s a lot of flexibility. Plus Johns are changing. So you need to be a lot more flexibility in what it is that you’re going to be doing two, three years down the road. And so that’s why I think flexibility is really an important, you know, integral, um, asset, if you will, or skills, you know, to have, and.  

I love that phrase. What is the best use of me many years ago, as I was getting involved in, uh, you know, this leadership and social change model I spoke about earlier called the bigger game. I heard that term from the facilitator at that time. And. I adopted that for me, especially when I’m faced with a tough life decision.  

Um, you know, I mean, I get an opportunity to go in many different directions. And as a learner, we really look at, we get lost in shiny objects. You know, I think I’m going to try this. I think I’m going to try that. I think I’m going to try that. So when I’m trying to make a decision on my life direction, I just really asked myself that question.  

Is this the best use? Of me. And when I can get really clear on the answer to that, I know that that’s the right direction that I need to go into. And that the answer to that question has never, ever failed me. It’s something that I work with my clients too, you know, is that the best use of you? And I think I actually picked up that phrase from John wooden, you know, the base, the base basketball coach.  

Yeah. I like LA somewhere. He was a very famous basketball court she has since passed on, but I think I got that phrase from him. Yeah. In mentioning that, you know, John jobs and careers are flexible and, and changing every year too. I’m always interested in professional’s opinion. Um, you know, I do a lot of engagement on LinkedIn and a lot of times I see these bios and they’re changing a job every year or two.  

And I think. Uh, w when I look at that, I either think one of two things, and it’s not always consistently one or the other, but I either think that person is really good at what they do, because then they get new opportunities or they’re really bad at what they do. And if you’re having to get new jobs. So it, so, which is it.  

Well, I’m I’m of two opinions staying in first opinion, they’re really good at what they do. And then second opinion. They’re really bad at what they do.  

I get that too. You know, there’s so much advice as you know, how do you do this on LinkedIn? How do you like this? And I agree with you, you know, and I know. If they’re learners, they’re going to keep learning, striving to find something new, something different, the next latest thing that they can learn and get it involved with.  

Um, and yeah, they’re bad. They losing the jobs as people don’t hang on to jobs. I mean, people, employers don’t hang on to people that don’t do. Their jobs now. So I’m I’m with ya. Okay. Alright. Fair enough. Well, you know, you have all this, this, um, experience in industry, but you also have very specific credentials.  

Um, so you have a degree in journalism as well as psychology and sociology. You talked about being a forever learner. You have an MBA, uh, you know, how much of that, um, You know, very specific education background plays a role in your career versus just what you’ve kind of learned on your own. Hm. Great question.  

I’m not sure that there is a versus I think that it’s more of an ant. Um, I think that, you know, the degrees that I have, the education that I get has all provided me with the ability to move into the different types of work that I did that has led me to where I am at right now and that having, you know, the MBA and.  

Undergrad in psych social journalism have really helped me in the path because I’m a blogger. I’ve written several books. So there’s my, you know, the journalist side of me coming out, the psychology sociology is. It has helped me throughout my entire career understood standing human behavior. I have always been fascinated as to, you know, someone put in a situation.  

If I was put into the same situation that you were put in Damon, we would have. Two entirely different reactions and an outcomes of that particular situation. So that has always helped me in business. Of course, that aspect has always fascinated me how to business run. I’ve always been really curious about that.  

So, uh, so to come into the coaching environment, I think those degrees have helped me and the work that I’ve done, my. My portfolio career, I think has given me credit ability in that I understand business from many different aspects. I have a 360 degree view of business because I’ve participated in all aspects of business.  

So I think it’s an, and I think it just marries beautifully into where I have landed here today with you on this, having this wonderful conversation about life and growth and entrepreneurship. Well, on, on the psychology note, uh, the, do you ever find yourself all over analyte? Like you catch yourself and you’re like, this is the psychological background I have and anybody else would not care right now.  

Well, two things. Number one, I started to go back for my master’s degree in psychology and I, I, I ended up with ones with two classes actually. And I got out of there really fast because psychologists, and this is again my mind. Um, they put a label on it. And then they treat the label and I’m like, I can’t do that.  

I can not do that. So my psychology sociology, it just makes me, I think, more curious. Um, but the second thing, it also does, it really helps me to understand when someone might need therapy more. Then they need coaching. So I can, you know, hook into hook into that element of the therapy. And then of course, you know, because of that education, I can provide my clients, uh, with a, with an understanding of human behavior to help them see that different perspective that I so admired when I went to that coaching demo many years ago.  

Yeah, I could, I could see that. It’s good that you, you kinda. Rationalize and put that into perspective for yourself. Now, we’ve, we’ve talked about all these career highlights, um, and I always like the opportunity to have our guests talk about maybe some of the rougher points that our audience can learn from.  

And you had mentioned there was a point where you were laid off because of an acquisition. Why don’t you share that story? Yes. Um, wow. I was working for an organization that I absolutely love to work for. It. Wasn’t a company that, uh, believe it or not rented list and sold electronic. Equipment. And the reason I love that is because it was an organization that gave me so many different opportunities and so many different, different spaces from, you know, starting an inventory control, moving out to purchasing, writing warehouses, running all sorts of different things and land again, it that’s where I had the opportunity to, um, Direct an it organization for the company.  

Then there was a merger and acquisition that came along and I’ve worked for this company about 10 years and you grow to be a family. It was a midsize company and you grow to be a family. And, you know, for my, my personal life, it was very close to home. So I could be with my family and friends and have that part of my life come true.  

And then they got acquired and we had just implemented a brand new computer system. I’d spent. Two years, two solid years. And they were long, long days, long, long nights because we were splitting the company to begin with. Well, we went through the conversion, which I’ll Edmond various. Oh, of course. I’ll admit that.  

And then about three months later, we heard we were getting sold to another company, a larger company, and they came and they, you know, went through the. The, uh, evaluation of our computer system. And they said, Oh my God, it’s really a wonderful, wonderful computer system. Great. We’d love to convert to that, but our company is bigger, so we’ve got the power.  

So we’re going to convert to our system  

and they asked me to transfer to Atlanta and I went out and visited Atlanta. And. I took a look around and I thought, you know, this would be fine. Um, great place to live. Nice people I’d be making more money and money goes further in Atlanta at that time than it did in San Francisco. But I took a look around and I went.  

I don’t think I can do this anymore. Right. I didn’t really want to move it wasn’t as diverse community as I have here in the Bay area. And I decided not to, so I had to say no to that. So they laid me off and I was lost. I was so lost because I had. Put my identity into the work that I did and didn’t have much that identity outside of that environment.  

And then someone actually recommended because she saw, I was having such a hard time. She recommended a book by William Bridges called transitions, and it is a book that helped me make it through knowing that even though my ending sucked and it was hard and I didn’t see a future and I was. I was depressed.  

You know, I lay on my couch for days. I could see that that’s something natural that you have to go through before you can let it go and begin to look at other things. So that’s, that’s how I managed to come out of that. And I can tell you, it was really, really hard because I had, at that time placed most of my identity in what I did.  

I don’t do that anymore. And don’t do that. Who’s ever listening. Yeah. It’s, it’s interesting how things like that tend to work out in the end and how you said that there’s a natural cycle to it. And that’s really important for people to understand that. Yes, it sucks, but that’s okay to let it suck and move on it.  

You know, I actually had a similar experience before I started my company 12 years ago. Um, one of the last gentlemen I worked for. Um, had offered me to go work in house in Las Vegas and it was more pay. Um, it, wasn’t better cost of living exchange though. And that’s what I looked at. And even if it was a better cost of living exchange, you know, this is when my wife and I were newly married.  

And so kids were going to be coming up in the next few years. And I just said, that’s not a place. That I want to be with a family. And, um, you know, it worked out perfectly by turning that down. Yeah. Excellent. And you know what? It all works out perfectly. Even the bad stuff works out perfectly because it’s the things that sometimes we learn the most from, and as we.  

You know, go through the bad stuff and the good stuff. I think it just adds to how resilient we are because of all the bad stuff that has happened in my life. You know, Damon. I know, I know that no matter what happens, I can make it through now, no matter what happens. Yeah. I definitely agree on, uh, you know, you always have these opportunities, the, the bad stuff is where you learn the most.  

For sure. I have to tell you, it always makes for great stories. Yeah. Yeah. That, and it’s out of the way because Brianne helps other people through the stories. So you talked about the evolution of that company and the merger and acquisition, uh, speaking of evolutions of companies, did you know that there is only one blockbuster video left now?  

I did. Yeah. Cause the one in Alaska closed down. Yeah. What was it? Camera’s g-string or so not as G  

I don’t remember. I think the last one is it is in Oregon now, and it was funny. I was reading about it and they were saying that they have to boot their system from a floppy disc. It’s so old. Yeah. Well, That’s that’s part of change, which we all go through. We go through organizations, go through politics, goes through all part of the change as, as we get closer to the end here.  

Um, let’s move off business a little bit and talk about personal life. What do you like to do in your downtime? Oh, gosh, what I love to do in my downtime. I just got a brand new puppy, 10 month old, little bearded Collie. So we are spending a lot of time with, with her without a doubt. I also love to do lots of hiking.  

I live in a beautiful, beautiful area. It is getting very crowded out here though, the San Francisco Bay area, but there’s still some real gems. To be able to go hiking. And I absolutely love, I love to travel the world in November, December, um, owning your own business. I took a two month sabbatical and I went down to six countries in South America in Antarctica.  

And I just got back from a trip to Cuba three weeks ago. So that’s what I do in my downtime. Wow. How to walk me through the Antarctica adventure. Where, where do you stay? What do you do? Oh my gosh. Well, the Antarctica adventure included a week of hiking in Patagonia, so it was camping and hiking, um, taking a wild horse Trek, which was.  

Absolutely crazy and beautiful. And then three weeks of board, um, a smaller ship where we went to the Falkland islands and stuff. Georgia made animals and flora and fauna and birds, even when kayaking amongst the icebergs, which was a one silver. Experience. Yeah. And what I loved most about Antarctica, that has to be the clarity, the blues of the skies, the white, white, white of the clouds and the glaciers.  

It was explicit. Do they have formal establishments in Antarctica? The establishments that I’m aware of in Antarctica happened to be research centers. And I think 23 different countries, there’s, there’s a whole organization, um, where they have, uh, some sort of a treaty down there. And there are research centers all over, you know, it’s like the international space station, but in Antarctica, uh, so out of all the places you’ve traveled, what’s been your.  

What’s been your favorite out of all of the places that I’ve traveled. That’s really, here’s how I like to say that because I love to travel so much and I like to see new things because I think that’s really, really important for, for learners and actually for people to see new things, to get different perspectives, to be in conversation with local cultures, etc.  

When anybody asks me that question, Damon, and I always say I haven’t been to my favorite place yet. Uh, the perpetual traveler. I like it. Okay. So we talked about gutsywomen.com. Uh, what other contact information do you want to throw out there for our listeners? Oh yeah, you can just go to gutsywomen.com.  

If anybody has any questions, feel free to send me an email at Pat@gutsywomen.com and you can also email, you can find me under Pat over Chesky on LinkedIn and gutsy women is on Facebook and Instagram. So help yourself, your choice. Lots of them. Well, Pat Obuchowski, I appreciate your time. I know you got to go.  

If you got 30 more seconds, I’m going to throw our random question generator at you that we leave our guests with. So you don’t, you don’t know what’s coming. So your question is, do you believe in an afterlife? I do. I absolutely do, because I feel, I feel that there are times that I’ve met people that I’ve known before.  

And the more I talk to them, the more I dig deeper, it’s like, Oh yeah, we’ve known each other before, because we know so much about other people. And I believe in an afterlife. And I believe that that is that we come back here because my next life is going to be even jucier than this one. And this one, take your experience into the next life.  

Exactly. Well, I appreciate your time, Pat. Maybe next time we’ll connect down the road and we can hear more of those stories about the afterlife and knowing other people see you in the next life day. Thank you Pat. You’re welcome. Bye.