Why do some people buy from you and others don’t? The human mind has only one need and today’s guest can help you figure what it is. The answer might surprise you.
Please welcome John Voris.
- 00.00.54 John Voris’ Background
- 00.01.57 All About Default Systems
- 00.12.20 Archetypes
- 00.16.19 European Material vs US Material
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Podcast Episode Transcripts:
Disclaimer: Transcripts were generated automatically and may contain inaccuracies and errors.
John, Voris, thanks for jumping on learning from others. How are you doing now?
Well, for the listeners, we were joking because I said, how are you doing? Um, you know, zoom gives you a little hiccups every once in a while. And so now we’re good. Now we’re going that’s right. John question number one that I like to ask my guests is what’s your background? What are we going to learn from you today?
Well, uh, what you’re gonna learn is how to capture. The default systems of clients and people, uh, I’ve learned how to find the essential, motivating factors of clients. And also I assist counselors and finding the motivating factors in their customers and clients. Okay. And before we dig into what default systems are, let’s hit you up with question number two, which is what do you suck at John?
Oh, that’s easy. Social engagements. Somebody. Yeah. Somebody asked me, uh, what do you do? And I tell them that’s the hard part. I tell them. I tell them for a little while, a little while longer, a little while longer. And for you note, I’ve taken up all their time and their face gets glassy. And that’s the end of it.
You can’t get to the point in social engagements. Oh, well, I just, I just saw there guy get involved in all the aspects of it and take it too far. I think people are interested in what I have to say, and they’re not, you know when I get out in the real, the edges of what I do, uh, they only want to hear the core and I get, I get, I drift away sometimes.
I’ve I’ve noticed a bit of that characteristic in myself in the last five or so years where I like to give too much of a back story when I explain things, instead of just getting to the punchline. Yeah. Well, in my case, if I don’t a little bit, then people get lost. Uh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s a balance. So what are default systems?
Let’s start there. Well, the idea is to make it, uh, uh, I got to tell a story and make it easier to understand, think of archeology archeologists, go out into the field to old ruins and they examine artifacts, uh, bowls, pottery, weapons, et cetera. And by looking at objects, they’re able to tell. A great deal about that society, uh, what their, what their motivations were in general and, uh, what, uh, confrontations they had.
And many of these, uh, uh, these, uh, tribes and villages, you know, vantage for no reason at all. And then they find out that there was an earthquake, for example, and they put it all together as my point. Uh, so they read artifacts and objects. And so right now around you. Uh, there are future artifacts. So archeologists can come a thousand years from now and walk into your office and know who you are to a point.
And so forensics, you know, we watched these detective movies and what they do is they read, uh, objects. They put together objects in time. Uh, and they create, uh, an idea of what happened through direct, uh, circumstances and indirect circumstances and evidence. And they put that together. So there’s also a lot of the books on, um, uh, uh, interior design, uh, architecture.
And what we do decided, decided on is people are really driven through objects, people in events. That’s how we express ourselves. So, what I did as a salesperson is I read the objects around people. So I was like, I was drifting, uh, uh, archeologists and right say, um, and what brought you on to, to digging deeper into this as a sales tool?
Like, was there a moment where you said, Hey, this, this clearly helps me identify what I need to do to solve my customer’s problems. So, what I did is first of all, I was in a to door sales, seven times. I was either fired three times and I quit for. So that’s my total history. Why did you stay in there for long enough to do seven rounds?
Um, uh, because I said there’s something wrong, there’s something wrong. I gotta find it. There’s something wrong. And I didn’t understand it cause other people around me, well, they had a very different personality and they seem to just flow through this. They were taking these courses and seminars and workshops.
They were doing wonderful. And I wasn’t. So, uh, I just, I just gave up. Uh, but a few years later, uh, I was forced into a situation where I had to, uh, I was going to, uh, do, uh, wholesale, uh, sales and I would see grocery stores delicatessens et cetera. But then, uh, when the day came for me to start, uh, he filed bankruptcy, but he said, don’t worry about it.
We’re going to go to the retail and have it. And you’ll have a job as a retail door to door salesman. So I was terrified. And now I had a wife and child support. So I’m looking at seven attempts, seven failures, nothing. So, uh, this, what I just described to you came to mind that you have archeology have, uh, people that can follow interior design.
You have, uh, the study of artifacts. And so then I started reading more about how we’re impacted by objects. No, I learned what a symbol is. And then I learned that we surround ourselves with symbols. That manifests, who we are. But the most important thing I learned was that the human mind only has one need, one need, and that is the perpetual need to express their authentic identity.
That means that around you, all the objects, the people in the vents you surround yourself with, there is a thread running through all of them. And it’s your default system. It’s like babies start with a default system. They learn, they know what they like. And they don’t like very young how’s that possible before language.
And they don’t all like the same things. How’s that possible. So there, so, uh, science has discovered that, uh, uh, Uh, babies have, uh, the beginnings of their personality at birth, and then it starts to slowly, uh, manifest even in the womb. And so there’s a starting point. And that starting point doesn’t does it restrict you, it gives you the freedom to choose what you want to do in life, but it’s not all the same.
We’re all unique. So, what I did is I took that concept forward to adults. Do adults do that? How can I find out, uh, how belts express this and I did, but I only did it through, uh, reading European sources, not, uh, what’s found in America, U S uh, existential psychology, for example. So I found what I needed and I put it all together and I started selling by reading objects.
Around people. And that told me what motivated that told me, uh, how to describe my widget. So I’ll give you an example. Yeah. Uh, by no, you can eat when bad, quick. I, I I’m totally on, on, on the same page. I get what you’re saying, but I think that it would bring it home for a lot of listeners if they could, they could have a clear, yeah.
So let’s take, for example, a, um, uh, a carpenter. A finishing carpenter and he works on yachts. So what would it take to be a carpenter, a finishing carpenter also he’s a master. And so as a master, he’s been doing it for 25 years, at least. So what would it take to be a master carpenter? What would you think I can start off by saying they have to be very, very patient.
You can’t rush through. Carpentry because there’s layers that you have to perform. Um, they have to think mathematically and understand distance and shape. Okay. They have to be creative. Um, they have to understand detail and they have to work with processes. So this is what, when you, when you start a job, you have to begin to learn.
Do you have the characteristics and traits to do this job? Well, And so sometimes people go into carpentry and they don’t have the patients. They’re not that detailed. Um, uh, they really don’t understand, uh, spatial relationships and they’re not doing a good job and they’re being criticized and they leave or they get fired.
And so that’s what we have to do is they learn to conform to what it means to be whatever it is, even a real estate person, a lawyer. It doesn’t matter what it is. Each one has a set of definitions that define and give the scope of that career or job. And you find out if you can fit into that. And so, um, because I know that.
When I have my widget, I walk in and that’s how I start. So this person is going to be how patients, mathematical understanding detailed work with processes. I mean, can you imagine, well, let’s say that would be imagination, but how rare would it be to find a carpenter finishing carpenter that w didn’t have any patients then understand math, didn’t understand ratios, didn’t understand detail and couldn’t process.
Could you find such a person. Yeah. Do you find so when you go in to the sales process and you can better understand who your audience is, so you can better sell to them. How much of this symbolism observation is done, uh, in research ahead of the engagement or immediately upon entering the room or the zoom call or whatever it is.
Well, if I’m just going to sell something, what I’m doing is it’s far more profound. I’m bringing an object into your life. No matter what it is, I’m bringing an object into your life. The question is what have you brought in your life? See every object around you right now is a previous choice. Isn’t it?
So the previous choices that I would see has a pattern, not pattern is there because you did the choosing and what you chose conform to your identity. So as soon as I walk into your office or your room or the warehouse, and look around, I’m seeing the objects that reflect who you are conform to you, to who you are.
And yeah, there was decisions to be made by you. So rather than having to guess on what’s, what’s the problem of the, uh, uh, the customer, I would say, no, I want to look at who this customer is and that’ll tell me quite often what they really think the problem is. Sometimes they don’t understand what the problem is.
They think they did. Yeah. What, what type of application, or as you said, a widget or industry, have you found the most success in and applying this approach with. Well, uh, actually where I, I went from there that was sales, that was door to door sales. And I did, uh, door to door sales. After that seven years by using the system, I did door to door sales for 20 years successfully.
Okay. Then when I retired from that, I realized what I was really doing was finding the motivations of people. And so why not put together a questionnaire and why not sit down with someone and do the same thing. And that’s what I do today. So, what I do today is much of my work is working with a consultant, counselors and trainers, and they have a client that they’re not, they not quite sure what they want to do.
Uh, and, uh, we get together on the phone usually. And, uh, I just go through this questionnaire. And I can find out, uh, the, uh, uh, archetypes that, uh, uh, the best archetype through which he learns the archetypes of change, uh, how he engages with people and what makes them happy for her. And it’s all about archetypes.
I, don’t just not a detail thing. So for example, uh, someone could, uh, have holistic knowledge. Holistic knowledge means you really like to absorb information from every direction. And you’re able to work with people very easily and change and be flexible. And so you can shift from something that happened yesterday to something that happened a year ago, two years, 20 years ago, you read in a book, uh, you can combine many, many sources and that’s a holistic thinker.
So I would approach a holistic thinker very differently than a linear thinker. And I would describe my widget in the same way holistically. Um, a good example. There would be, uh, say a beauty salon operator. And so she has to deal with talking to people all day, entertaining them and, and be able to slip from one conversation to another.
So that tells me they’re holistic. Um, and so when I walk through the door, I say, oh, by the way, do you know Margaret two doors down? Uh, I just sold her this. Oh yeah. I know Margaret. You know, so I’ve, so that’s very different than if I walked into an attorney’s office. I would never say anything like that.
And I would go straight toward a very structured, analytical approach. And so that’s what I did with all these organizations and companies and people that I saw. And then now I’ve transferred it to a world where I really enjoy doing it is 17, 18 year olds. They’re about to. Decide what their major is, and they don’t know what it is.
They don’t know what they need to do. That’s interesting that you bring that up because a lot of people are going to say, well, at that age. Sure. You understand what you like. And don’t like to an extent, but you haven’t experienced enough to, to make a decision. Do you feel like that they know enough about themselves as young adults to be able to kind of pick a path.
No, that’s not how it works. The, how it works is I focus on the process. So for example, holistic knowledge, holistic knowledge is not confining well, let’s acknowledge is not something they have to tell me. I see it. Okay. Lindsey, you’re thinking, I see it. Detailed thinking. I see it. We all do. Okay, but we don’t pay a lot attention to it.
That’s the difference. So we’re not there. Our awareness is not there. So, um, maybe when it comes to, uh, connections with people, they’re very pragmatic. They don’t have to tell me that. I can see it. I could see if you’re practical or not, or, uh, uh, let’s say you just, uh, whoa, you’re more into rescuing people.
I could tell that, um, But that happened. I only, only last year, there was a young man who, um, who really was motivated by rescue and he really enjoyed rescuing people. And the problem is, is when he doesn’t have anyone to rescue yes. To find the victim, the victim was himself. And once he saw that, He had a real problem with drinking.
I’m I’m not, I don’t get into this, but this happens by accident, uh, that, uh, he was a heavy drinker and he saw why, cause he had to make himself a victim. If he’s not helping someone else. I also had an attorney like that. So when it comes to the, your question is very good. One. I’m not looking at the end.
What do they do? They know themselves, know what I’m looking for is the process through which they arrive at any answer. And from those processes, then you can, you can, uh, uh, bring together and tire, uh, uh, diagram of who they are. And it’s predictable. I want to go back just a little bit. You had mentioned European material versus us material.
Can you elaborate a little bit more on that? Sure. Uh, in the United States, we focus on the scientific method and, uh, th that happened, uh, especially at the end of world war II. And, um, so we’re focused on just analyzing and defining facts, facts. That’s what we look for. And when you do that, your, the human mind is not a machine.
There’s a lot. You can find, for example, in pharmaceuticals. Mostly psychiatrists and psychologists help people out a great deal. They’re wonderful. They’re doing it through their personality, not necessarily what they learned. In fact, what they do is they take several theories of mind and they bring them together.
So they’re all a mishmashed together that conforms to who that person is, the, the therapist. So, uh, in Europe they begin with, what does it mean to be human? Oh, that’s very different. Yes. So if, if you walk into my office and I’m an analyst, I’m looking for, what’s your problem? Can I see any symptoms? I’m looking for symptoms, but in Europe, it’s not that they start off with, what are you all about?
Tell me about yourself in general. So it ends up to be that that person doesn’t have a problem. It’s just the way they are quite often. Um, quite often, they’re just not looking at the same situation in a healthy way, and they turn them around, but they start off with what does it mean to be human and, um, and also they use that information to isolate the issues that they do have, and it, it ends up being quite, quite an experience because you learn much more about what it means to be human, rather than analytics, psychology, where everything is defined.
Yeah. You had talked earlier about how you didn’t have lucky and you know, you’re seeing these other people, Excel and workshops and selling courses, um, and kind of offline. We had briefly talked about how some people succeed in those environments and some people don’t. So what is the cause? Uh, you know, why didn’t you succeed in those environments and other people did, and why do other people succeed in business coaching and taking advice from whatever guru they’re falling, other people don’t.
Well, um, what I discovered as well is, um, through European psychology, uh, is people are motivated by love justice wizman power. And this is actually, uh, spoken, spoken about even in, uh, Egypt, in Kona farming. And so, and another area that I studied in great deal was the Toltecs. Um, These four really drive our life starts off with you, care for something, uh, you need, you’re curious, you need to know about something, uh, you understand relationships and you want to make change.
And in that change you become, that gives you your happiness. And so, uh, through those four, once you find the, uh, general view, what they like to do the best, what gives them the most pleasure? You’re really finding. Their authentic identity or their default system. So w if I, if we talk about something you like, it comes from the same places, what you don’t like, they’re generated by the same thing.
They’re hooked to the same thing, which is you need to express your authentic identity. You do it every waking moment. So I’ll have to do again, is look at the objects around you and know that they’re connected. I I have, uh, I’m not quite sure how to ask this. So I’m going to try and speak it out loud and, and figure this out.
So when you say authentic identity, I feel like a lot of people don’t know who they are though. So how do you. Approach somebody who doesn’t necessarily even know themselves. Is that even a thing? Oh, absolutely. That’s most of my clients. And in other words, you have a 17 year old or 18 year old and he, or she does not know what to do in life.
And you’ve made a very good point. They, they don’t know who they are. So, well, what I do know is the objects around them in their life. And I do know how they relate to those objects and people and events. So all I have to do is sit down and start talking about, Hey, what do you like to do? Um, uh, during recess and they tell me, and then I’ll say, well, why do you like that?
Tell me, but then I’ll say go a little further. Why do you like that? And you see what I’m doing is they’re telling me what they like and what they like. And they dislike are both connected to their default system or authentic identity. Is there a combination that stands out that you see. Something happened more often than not.
I’ll give you an example. Well, I remember, oh, it was probably about 17 years ago. Um, I was working with, uh, a gentleman. Who’s still a friend of mine today. And so he, at the time he was in his thirties and he was adopted. And so at that point in his life, he started to, uh, really be curious about who his biological parents were and tell them he didn’t really care so much.
And then as he dug deeper into it, he started to find. Patterns kind of like what you’re touching on, about how men in their thirties, around his age with his characteristics, that’s when most people seek to find out who, you know, most people that fit his demographic want to know about their biological parents.
And so it was like a common reoccurring thing. And so it supports everything you’re saying, but I guess kind of just a super broad question is, do you see. Common common reoccurring things happen in, in reoccurring age groups or demographics or anything stand out and patterns like that. Well, yes, that’s, um, uh, that, that curiosity, um, th it all has phases and, um, we develop, um, some people get to their thirties and they never were married and they need to find someone to get married and that’s their primary goal, or, uh, they’re tired of being lonely.
And so they want to start joining clubs. And, um, uh, they want to really make many changes and, uh, they find themselves in a position to do just that. Um, but I want to go back to your question. I don’t think I really answered it, uh, fully about why is it that I didn’t do well in, um, uh, sales and the answer is rejection.
Got me by the throat. That’s always the reason why people get out of sales. I mean, if you walked up and says, will you buy my widget? And the guy says, yes, there’s no problem. But when you hear no’s all day, it becomes a problem starts to eat at you. So what I, the first thing I had to do is find out what is that really all about?
And so I said that I discovered that it was love justice, wisdom, and power is what controls us. And so you have your own, you have your theme, you have all four, but you have one of them that dominates all four. And so, uh, I, I started saying to myself, well, you know, I want to teach people. I want to teach people about this.
Uh, I, I’m not going to get involved with the, uh, benefits and features and all that, um, that I want it. I want to, um, find what they. Really makes them happy and sad. And, but through wisdom, what they believe, want to know, what do they need to know? And so I took that approach. So when someone didn’t buy from me, then I would say, ah, no problem.
Uh, they don’t want to know. They don’t want to know. They don’t want to know that they can get something cheaper or better or more value they don’t want to know. And I don’t know why I said that myself, but I did. And when I said that to myself, for some reason, I never felt rejection again. So what I linked was much later is, and I’ve helped people overcome rejection is if your theme is wisdom, the worst thing that can happen to someone who is wise, uh, is to be wrong, to really believe in what they.
Think they know and be wrong. And when someone says no to you, what they’re saying is you’re wrong about what you’re doing? You’re wrong about what, what the widget you’re selling. You are wrong as a person. If you’re a loved person, then it’s saying you’re not lovable. You’re not likable. Um, I don’t wanna have anything to do with you.
So you see it goes straight to the theme that really controls that. And that’s what they feel as, uh, the rejection. So once they understand what their theme is, they understand. Yeah. I see. Now why I felt rejected all the time. And so now I know how to get around it. So the way they do that is there’s certain techniques you work with with the life theme and they just roll right through it.
I never feel it yet. But it’s all natural going to have to do anything. Yeah. John, I want to thank you for your time as we kind of get closer to wrapping up, I think we can kind of bring it home with one question. A majority of our listeners are entrepreneurs or business owners. And so when we started with your intro, we talk about your experience in selling kind of the last question is.
You know, why are people really buying? I imagine it comes down to some sort of inner desire, but why do people end up buying from one person over another one thing versus another thing? Well, what I discovered was very bizarre. I had a, um, Uh, a gentleman come to me and he sold cars and, uh, he was a love person and he was driven by family.
And so the people who came to the lot, looking for a station wagon or an SUV he could sell, but people on the lot that were looking for a sports car, he couldn’t sell. Now it’s not that he couldn’t sell, but it was rather there’s another communication going on. I didn’t know. I can’t explain that. I don’t get into that, but it seems that there was something consistent and he, when he sent those, uh, customers to another, uh, uh, a salesman who basically sold nothing but sports cars, it w it was a done deal.
Now, what was being said between the two, it wasn’t anything different that you’d basically use the same scripts. But, um, one is they sold and the other one didn’t and the other is what’s most important. If anything is to be real with people, that’s what the problem is. Yes. Usually we, we, uh, uh, devise a way to appear a way that that would be acceptable to them and that doesn’t work becomes artificial, but when you’re yourself, you’re your default system, your authentic identity comes right through and you’re, you’re communicating with them now.
Yeah, it’s, it’s interesting because it’s something that I’ve, I believe in strongly as well. And actually the last call I had before we jumped on record was, uh, was a lead for my SEO agency. And after doing the small talk thing, I said, Hey, it’s, you know, 3000 bucks a month. Is that in your budget? So that, I mean, we’re good at what we do and you either like it, or you don’t like it, and I’m not going to pitch the guy.
If he says, yes, great. If he says no great. And he took a moment to laugh and smile and said, you just cutting to the chase and not trying to build up all this crappy fake value is such a, his words were literally such a breath of fresh air. It’s really amazing that more people don’t embrace it because.
It makes my life easier. I don’t have to, I hate doing the pukey sales thing and it makes the customer’s lives easier because they don’t like the pukey cells and they’re waiting for it, all the walls go up, you know? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, John Voris, I appreciate you jumping on learning from others. Want to give you the last moment to put out your contact information or let our listeners know how they can find out more about you.
Yeah, just go to, uh, Johnvoris.com and, uh, uh, send me a message. And I’d like to talk to any about any issue, uh, that no charge, uh, what’s going on in your life. And, uh, if you’d like to find out what really drives you or maybe your son or daughter, uh, that I can set up the site. Super cool, John, thanks so much.
Appreciate your time. Thank you.